The Traditional View. There’s this last great battle at the Hill of Cumorah in upstate New York, located near Joseph Smith’s house, and at least 230,000 men, women, and children died in battle at this hill Cumorah. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites.” , “Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York… Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.“ , “Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” , “Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Under the grass SW of todays visitors center Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place. Mormon mentions the hill Shim in Mormon 1:3 and 4:23, and the Nephites’ final battle at Cumorah in chapter 6 of his book. The last battle of both the Nephites and the Jaredites took place at or near the same location. The Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon | Simiskey, Patrick L | ISBN: 9781949348101 | Kostenloser Versand für alle Bücher mit Versand und Verkauf duch Amazon. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. Words get assigned to multiple places over time. Ether 14:12–13, 26 Is There Evidence of Great Battles Near the Hill Cumorah? A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. This atlatll point may be from that last battle of the once great Jaredite people, a story more dramatic than anything Hollywood could conjure. The answer should be obvious! “The Book of Mormon records that due to the wickedness of the Nephite civilization they were destroyed by their brothers the Lamanites. It doesn’t help to discount this vast field of study by calling scholars and investigators mere “unofficial apologists.”. The earliest second-hand reference to the small hill in New York is David Whitmer in 1878 and his context is unclear. Doctrine. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It is a close-minded ideology to believe only what you have a physical explanation for. There must be thousands of artefacts and I would love to see them. Do you all realise how utterly ridiculous you all sound. With black ashes This is likely not the same hill where Moroni later buried the plates containing the Book of Mormon. The first battle took place among the Jaredits, who called the hill Ramah. We just don’t know. That claim leads to subsequent arguments against the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith believed the numerous mounded earth hills located throughout the upstate N.Y. region, now known to be glacial drumlins, to be man-made Indian burial mounds. You people who are M2cCtheory supporters and deceivers had better get the facts straight or you will stand before God, Jesus Christ, and all the people you are deceiving and have to answer for it. Do your research with more heart Some scholars suggest that Mormon hid a massive cache of records in a hill, but not that hill, because Moroni wandered for a time with the few plates he had. . The final, decisive battle bringing about the end of Nephite society took place about ad 385 (recounted in Mormon 6:1–15) around the Hill Cumorah, the same location formerly known as the Hill Ramah, where the Jaredite nation had earlier ended in battle … I believe this is why George Albert Smith didn’t parade around the baskets of arrowheads as proof for the church membership. Even if it couldn’t be denied as legitimate, they would pass it off as coincidence. The exact direction the site of the final battles lay from Moron is also unclear. Have archeologists ever dug up remains of these two great battles in that area? And that’s what it comes down to. See Mormon 6:2. Envision the City of Phoenix relying upon primitive hunting and gathering to sustain its hungry population while leaving absolutely no trace behind. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history….” , “Cumorah, the artificial hill of North America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Cumorah had also been the site of the destruction of the jaredites roughly 900 years earlier. The Hill Cumorah, and ample battle evidence. Just imagine 260 thousand dead in the last battle and literally millions dead a thousand years before that.! It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. I was there and saw the ashes my self If a book of metal plates titled “Nephi’s Journal” were discovered in Mexico City today, do you think skeptics would change their minds? Sperry, who had held to the New York Cumorah for many years, in this study was persuaded that the hill Cumorah of the last battles had to be located in Mexico north of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (he made no specific location suggestion). This is in direct contradiction to what Joseph Smith and other prophets have taught.” For concerns and questions please contact. There is no reason why Cumorah has to only be at one place or another. Superstition -Is Mormonism at odds with science? Cumorah is also the likely location as the gathering place of the Jaredite army of Coriantumr prior to the final battle of the Jaredites. Even if we grant advanced metal weaponry, anyone who has ever hunted wild game will immediately comprehend the myriad compounding problems of such a massive endeavor. No, Joseph Smith did not teach that the battle of Cumorah was in New York. Angels set the entire place on fire PAGEANT INFO. How many were killed in the battle? The Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY is central to all Book of Mormon events. Not long after the Book of Mormon was published, Latter-day Saints began speculating about the location of this hill. The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon. In 1937–1939 Washburn and Washburn argued that the Nephite/Jaredite final battles at the Hill Cumorah were near the narrow neck of land, and thus unlikely to be in New York. An untold number of Lamanites were also killed. Good enough for me. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrowheads. I’ve actually searched the area myself but I couldn’t even find an arrowhead. “In accord with these general observations about New York and Pennsylvania, we come to our principal object—the Hill Cumorah. While it has been commonly believed that the hill in New York where Joseph Smith received the gold plates is the same Hill Cumorah described in It is the place where Moroni (last contributor) hid the record and the place where Joseph Smith found it. Coriantumr realized that two million of his people had been killed long before they reached Ramah, or Cumorah. That hill is only 30-50 feet high. Other prophets have not contradicted the theory that the Cumorah battle did not take place in New York, apart from a few speculative writings in much later years. Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56: The Book of Mormon describes the final battle place between the Nephites and Lamanites as the land and hill Cumorah. Skeptics can get away with this incredible claim because it is the consensus among so many people that Nephites never existed, and because it takes so long to explain the evidence. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill.” , “These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites.” , “Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.” , “It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York.” , “Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people arountario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. “This book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pg. About A.D. 385. Mike Norton – Activist [Ye are the light of the world. “Early in 1928, the hill Cumorah was purchased by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. Archaeological evidence? Joseph’s purported experience could only have been experienced in his mind’s eye, as we know beyond any doubt that no cave exists within the thoroughly explored Hill Cumorah. The Book of Mormon was translated from the plates given to Moroni and not those buried in the Hill Cumorah. Let your light so shine before men.] This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. But really, how is the existence of ‘alternative theories’ evidence of falsehood. The Final Battle for Cumorah Reviewed by John Clark In a period of less than 900 years the Hill Cumorah, or Ramah, twice witnessed the self-slaughter of once-righteous civilizations, and its slopes wept with the blood of hundreds of thousands of mutilated victims. They make the claim early on, and each following argument further bolsters the narrative. The Book of Mormon narrative tells of two epic battles that took place on a hill named Cumorah. The reason why Coriantumr and Mormon chose that place for final battle was the same, and it was NOT because of war strategy. So, I believe that there were two different hills referred to as Cumorah. (See “Cumorah,” The Encyclopedia of Mormonism.) At Cumorah, hundreds of thousands of Nephites were slain, and the prophet/historian Moroni buried the history of his people in that hill (Mormon 6:2-15; 8:1-5). DNA disproves? This hallowed hill continues to The Jaradite word for Cumorah, Ramah, appears to be a variant of the Hebrew rāmāh, “elevation, height.” The word Cumorah appears to be related to the Akkadian verb kamāru, “to heap up, to layer.” The prophet Ether said of the final Jaradite Battle at Ramah/Cumorah: “their bones should become as heaps of earth upon the face of the land.” So both Ramah and Cumorah are Jaradite descriptions of a place. This atlatll point may be from that last battle of the once great Jaredite people, a story more dramatic than anything Hollywood could conjure. It is also near the location of the final battle where the Nephite race was destroyed. It is like claiming that the Library of Alexandria never really existed because we have no physical evidence today, apart from some alleged ancient tales. (CES Letter). As recently as 1990, The Office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church confirmed that Cumorah is in New York. All rights reserved. 18 It is those plates that were given to Moroni by Mormon that Joseph Smith translated into The Book of Mormon. This means Cumorah was not exclusive to one place. The final battles of this unholy war took place near a hill that was called Cumorah. A single sentence was sufficient for Joseph to tell everything about the temptation of riches, but Oliver devoted six pages to the struggle with greed. This attitude about physical evidences led the crusaders to seek out physical objects from the holy land to validate the bible, pieces of the cross or the cup of Jesus Christ. A shift away from faith leads a person to rely on superstition and not practice personal agency, by being total reliant on others for his beliefs and actions. Ether 5:11; In the second battle the Lamanites destroy the Nephites. Mormons do not need to do this. ☼ Mormon 6:1–3: And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. They, along with those who have come before and after them, are crying in their graves because of your continual wicked fault and deceiving deceits and lies. Faith is being okay with no knowing where the battle took place and yet still learning important lessons from the battle through personal critical thought. So yes, evidence has been found. Mormon stated that the Lamanites killed roughly 230,000 of his people. and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls.” . Most LDS scholars (me included) believe that there was a hill in Guatemala or Southern Mexico that they called Cumorah. Mormon stated that the Lamanites killed roughly 230,000 of his people.1 Yet this number may, at first, seem impossibly large. There is simply no evidence supporting any population growth of remotely similar scale anywhere in the world. The fact that Mormon scholars come up with multiple models for Book of Mormon geography implies guilt, that it is all made up. The final battle. Or–who knows–maybe the battle actually was in New York and all evidence was picked up by people in the ensuing years, apart from some spears and arrows which have been found? But in the Book of Mormon itself, there are at least two places “called” Cumorah: a land and a large hill which oversees an entire land. And it giveth light unto all that are in the house. This is not the place of Mormon’s last stand. The New York hill Cumorah is a simple drumlin hill (Irish meaning “Little Ridge), one of many in New York, a low lying deposit of till and glacial drift, left over from a melting glacier . Moroni states in the book of Ether that the Jaredites gathered for battle near "the hill Ramah," the same hill where his father, Mormon, hid up "the records unto the Lord, which were sacred" (Ether 15:11). Cumorah, more commonly known among Mormons as the Hill Cumorah, is the name given to a hill (so named in 1829) four miles south of Palmyra, New York.It was in this hill, in roughly the year A.D. 421, that the prophet/historian Moroni deposited a record, engraved upon golden plates he and his father Mormon had compiled. Its a real battlefield. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Ether 5:11 In the second battle the Lamanites destroy the Nephites. And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred. It always leads to superstition, because no amount of science can prove without reasonable doubt that a historical object is what it purports to be. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. Perhaps in their language Cumorah refers to records, libraries, preservation, or something like that. Or just a certain version of science? Is there some part of this pageant I don’t know about that declares “New York is where this really happened?” How is the visitor’s center for the location where Joseph Smith retrieved the plates evidence where the battle of Cumorah was located? He then says he beheld groups of ten thousand led by others who had fallen, but does not indicate that they had fallen in this particular battle or location. We use the word “Cumorah” today as a proper noun to refer to small hill where Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates. It was there, in this Land of Cumorah, at the hill called Cumorah, that Mormon buried all the records except his own writings which he gave to his son Moroni. Human survival was long a precarious struggle, starvation a constant threat. Joseph Smith never taught that the site of the Nephite battles was in New York. Plenty of early Mormons and Mormon leaders have assumed that the small hill in New York is where the battle occurred, that is true. Numerous early LDS leaders and non-members recounted the cave story, including Hyrum Smith, Orson Pratt, Edward Stevenson, David Whitmer, William Horne, W.W. Phelps and Elizabeth Kane. There could be any number of places that were called “Cumorah.”. The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening. The 8-day Jaredite battle at Cumorah could not have involved more than a few thousand, as we see from the count of the actual number killed on the last two days. About 400 A.D. the last great battle was fought near the hill Cumorah; and the Nephite nation became extinct. Heber C Kimball in 1856 taught “…more records than ten men could carry. Copyright © 2019 Mormon Stories. Cumorah had also been the site of the destruction of the jaredites roughly 900 years earlier. Your email address will not be published. Do Mormons need science to validate every single detail of their faith? 59) Apostle Orson Pratt spoke many times about the hill Cumorah and never placed it anywhere but New York. This included not only the abridgment made by Mormon, but the records of the plates of Nephi (both large and small), the brass plates of Laban (brought from the land of Jerusalem), and the plates of Ether.” , The Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. We are given too little information to tell. Why is the church holding a pageant at the drumlin hill in New York if that isn’t really where the final battle took place? The Book of Mormon does not mention swords, chariots, or armor existing anywhere near the time of the Cumorah battle, so why would those things be expected to be found? Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.”, “Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. No other choices. I’m trying to figure out how come there have been no artifacts found of the final great battle on Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. Come to Cumorah. He saw “the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down.” This indicates the battle was in the general land, not the hill, and does not indicate anyone except those ten thousand were involved. This is only a portion of the evidence I have seen on this topic, here is a sample, be sure to read info. [A great battle was fought between the Nephites and the Lamanites in which the Nephite civilization was entirely destroyed.] The Final Battle for Cumorah: Publication Type: Journal Article: Year of Publication: 1994: Authors: Clark, John: Journal: Review of Books on the Book of Mormon: Volume: 6: Issue: 2: Pagination: 79-113: Type of Article: Review Essay: Keywords: Ancient America; Geography; Heartland; Hill Cumorah; North America: Abstract: Review of Christ in North America (1993), by Delbert W. Curtis. Apologists do not say Cumorah was not in New York. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord.” (The Latter-day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221) “The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York.” , “The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening.” , “We visited the Hill Cumorah…We were delighted to be there. Sensing that this might be “the last struggle” of his people, Mormon buried all of the sacred records of his people in the hill . Central America matches the description of the Nephite civilization, Why Latter-day Saints Love ‘The Princess Bride’. Are pageants always performed at the site of the scenes they depict? The Great Lakes area of the United States is covered in ruins that match the cities and fortresses of Cumorahland described in the Book of Mormon. West of the highway from visitors center This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples…on the same battle site, with the same hill. Names are given to multiple places all the time in the Book of Mormon. (Ether 13) There were additional battles leading up to Cumorah. Manchester, NY | A team of archaeologists excavating a drumlin known as Mormon hill or the Cumorah, in western New York, have discovered a set of gold plates which they believe could be linked to the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith Jr. The Book of Mormon narrative tells of two epic battles that took place on a hill named Cumorah. Then, he led his troops—230,000 of them—to battle. The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. It would actually be detrimental to Mormonism if heaps of bones and weapons were found at the drumlin hill in New York, because it would shift our narrative away from matters of faith. That hill is only 30-50 feet high. Just because bones and hair haven’t been found doesn’t mean somebody didn’t die there many thousands of years ago. In the final battle at the Hill Cumorah, the Lamanites completely decimated the Nephites. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama…and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.”, “It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. (CES Letter). Anachronisms? There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord.” . In the Book of Mormon, Cumorah is mentioned in six verses, five in chapter 6 and one in chapter 8 of a subpart of the book, which is also known as the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon describes the final battle place between the Nephites and Lamanites as the land and hill Cumorah. I have a great interest in archaeology and would simply love to visit the museums where the artefacts of the two battles of Cumorah ( as featured in the Book of Mormon ) are housed. Thomas Ferguson called it fiction? Satellite view of the Hill Cumorah with the road winding to the top. I talked about the final battle that virtually annihilated the Nephites. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites.” , “The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his’ son, Moroni. Why? First Presidency letter to Bishop Darrell Brooks, Oct 16, 1990. He combined and abridged the records and engraved them on gold plates. This sows discord and isolation within the Mormon community and opens up further opportunities for skeptics to divide and conquer Mormons through social avenues. Oliver Cowdery, another of Smith’s primary witnesses, described how he personally accompanied Smith multiple times to return the plates into the Hill Cumorah. CES Letter switches the location of Cumorah/ Ramah to Canada in an argument later on because its geography does not fit New York. It makes sense. It is also near the location of the final battle where the Nephite race was destroyed. Maybe they called lots of places “Cumorah,” as there are certainly many places that are high and heaped up. The gathering to Cumorah took approximately four years. He reported that a cave opened before them, containing the sword of Laban upon a table, and “wagon loads” of plates stacked high around the cavern.
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